Interview with Nooshin Ahmadi

Nooshin Ahmadi is a publisher, writer, and feminist activist. She is the founder of Nashr-e Towseh (Development Press), which publishes writings and translations of Iranian women, most notably in the well-respected women's monthly journal Jens-e Dovom (The Second Sex), of which she is the editor. She has recently published her third women's calendar, in which she introduces feminist pioneers from Iran, and from around the world. The enormously popular book calendar, which was published for the first time three years ago, seeks to provide "a glimpse into the hidden history of Iranian women so that they, too, will be given their rightful place in our national and women's international history."

MS - Why did you name your publishing house towseh (development)?

NA - About ten years ago, the issue of development in Iran was a hot topic. Many discussions and debates revolved around its significance for Iran, and some people, including me, insisted that without economic and industrial development, other changes, such as democratization, were not possible. During this time, there was a parallel movement that did pursue democratization, but back then, I was more inclined to discussions of development, and I placed its precedence over what I believed to be smaller and less significant issues such as the individual and his/her freedom. Maybe it had to with my age, I was younger then, and I was attracted to the "larger" issues. I believed in the sweeping grand slogans like "The development of our nation is most important!" and I didn't pay much attention to issues of democracy, and the social and political changes that it entails.

Gradually, however, the movement for democratization grew stronger, along with the awareness that our nation has a history of autocratic rule, and that despite a revolution under our belt, those undemocratic structures were still firmly in place. The more we realized that certain ambitious changes had not come to fruition, the more we turned our attention to those smaller and previously overlooked objectives. That is why discussions of democracy and building a civil society have become so widespread, and have gained so much ground in recent years. And in fact, they provided the groundwork for much of what you see today, and of the past two years, starting with the Second of Khordad and President Khatami's election. But in 1990, since I was active in issues concerning development, I named my publishing press towseh.

MS - You're only 30 years old now. You were quite young when you began Nashr-e Towseh.

NA - Yes, well, I was nearing the completion of my bachelor's degree in environmental health. My husband and I started Ketab-e Towseh (The Book of Development), a monthly journal that collected articles dealing with issues of development. My husband was the editor, and I often contributed articles concerning women's issues. It was because of Mehrangeezeh Kar's articles on women, and my own articles on the subject, that the journal was ordered to shut down. Of course, that was about four years ago, when the restrictions were much tighter.

MS - When did you start focusing more exclusively on women's issues?

NA - It was sort of a natural progression. During this period, we started realizing that without a democratic infrastructure, development could not be actualized. And since women are citizens as well, I realized that without democracy for women, there could be no democracy and no strong civil society for the nation. So, I began collaborating with various magazines and contributing articles concerning women's issues- back then there wasn't a lot of discussion about women yet, and there was far more resistance towards engaging in such topics. I gained a lot of experience in press work- how to run a magazine, etc. I translated a lot as well, and eventually I realized that I had some thoughts of my own, and I wanted to voice them. So I steered away from translating, and focused more on my own writings for various publications. I realized that if you are not independent and autonomous, you are at the mercy of others, and subject to compromises that are not of your choosing. When I contributed to other magazines, I saw how quickly they buckled under any heat when printing articles about women. They weren't as committed to women's issues, and because their beliefs didn't run as deep, they would give in to the slightest pressure. It was then that I truly understood the significance of establishing and maintaining an independent women's movement. So, I branched out on my own, and exactly a year ago, the first issue of Jenseh Dovom, a journal of compilation of articles on women was issued.

MS - So you learned much of what you know on your own, through years of social and political action. You were self-taught.

NA - (laughs) Well, yes, I banged on enough doors, explored many avenues... Isn't that how most people learn?

MS - Well, there are many who come to, or believe in coming to their intellectual development through higher education, through the values of studying in "institutions of learning."

NA - (laughs again) No, not here in Iran, I don't know what it's like in the West, but you don't learn much about these issues in the universities. People here have to pursue information on their own, we have to learn these things independently... And we're still learning.

MS - We're sitting in an office space that you are planning to turn into a women's library where women can read and do research. With the establishment of this resource center, gathering information will become a little easier- in an environment geared for women, but just as important, in a public place. In a space other than their homes- in a space which is established, run, and occupied by women.

NA - The lack of public space is a general problem in Iran. It has always been a problem, even before the revolution. Neither women nor men have a lot of public places they can call their own. But men at least can stand around in the streets and hang out and talk, they can sit in the parks for hours. But for women, it's much more difficult, they can't just stand in the streets, they can't hang out in the parks. It's not legally prohibited, but it's a space that is neither welcoming nor safe. Women cannot let their guard down in these spaces, and you can see it with the constant cat callings, taunts, gawks, and all the various forms of invasion into their space.

MS - Yes, that's one of the first things I noticed here. While the streets are very masculinized in the West as well, it is more pronounced here. It is less hidden and more sanctioned here. Women would be free, for the most part, to roam wherever they please, but actually, they don't, because the invasions into their spaces are so unrelenting.

NA - Yes, this dearth of public space existed before the revolution as well, but it has worsened since the revolution, for both sexes. The spatial segregation of the sexes has further limited our space. You can see its effects in the spatial configurations of our homes- within the spatial divisions between what is considered outside and inside. There's a lack of feeling secure outside the home. Even in apartments, people put their garbage right outside their doors without a second thought, while inside, the apartments are immaculate- even the walls are thoroughly cleaned. The apartment has been decorated with great care, but the other side of the door is "out there"-it doesn't belong to them.

MS - As if they weren't its rightful occupants.

NA - Yes, and it speaks to this feeling of not being members of a larger collective. Iranians see themselves as separate from society at large. This condition, of course, has roots in the past- again, I'm speaking of our long history of autocratic rule. Iranians have rarely participated in the decision-making processes. And now, there's interference in our personal lives as well- how we behave, who we speak to, what we wear, etc. So, our personal domains have further retreated inward in recent years. Women have historically created spaces for themselves. Like the old, traditional gathering of the sofreh. Today, the gatherings revolve around more contemporary discussions such as women's rights and child psychology. But these places are still private, they still gather in each other's homes. These women's spaces have not permeated into society. We're in great need for public spaces that are autonomous and function independently. The cultural centers that have proliferated in recent years, while expanding our public space, are not independent. They are state-run and are subject to surveillance and control. It is impossible for an individual to freely establish a public place, independent from state knowledge and interference. That individual has to jump through a multitude of complicated bureaucratic hoops to get permission, and even then... For example, the Association in Defense of Children's Rights has not been able to open an independent children's shelter precisely because of these problems. Such a home has to be under the umbrella of a state organization that would approve and supervise its activities.

So, this women's resource center attempts to not only provide a comfortable public space, but to provide information- easily accessible information that can inform women about women. Because that's another significant problem here, information is very difficult to access. Everything here is confidential, private, and classified. I can't go into a library as a private citizen to do research. I need to be a college student or a college professor, or I need a letter of introduction and endorsement from an organization... Somehow, my presence and my intention needs to be justified. You'd think that only academics and organizations do research.

And, for women, because we can't find resources, we run the risk of being unoriginal and repetitive. And often, our work is. It's the same old thing, with minimal development of ideas and thought because new information is not within our reach. And since I produce Jenseh Dovom, which collects articles on women from Iran and from abroad, I thought this library could provide a series of books, articles, journals that women can use for their work.

I want to include a women's coffee shop, so they can socialize, and hold meetings here as well. The meetings that now largely take place within the homes are incredibly labor intensive and complicated endeavors for the hostess. They usually occur in the early evenings after work, when the husband and children are home as well. So, her domestic responsibilities have to be met, the husband has to be out of the house or out of the way for several hours, the children need to be accounted for, and so on. And then there are the refreshments that need to be bought and served... Even in some homes where family members have learned to live with this kind of lifestyle to a certain degree, and they have much lower expectations in terms of the woman's domestic responsibility, it's still a juggling act.

MS - I remember speaking with you some time ago of the challenges that Iranian women face, being largely isolated from so-called "global feminism or sisterhood." You spoke of the striking absence of Iranian women from this dialogue, and of the detrimental and isolating effects on women here- that Iranian women were not only unable to benefit from this global community, but that they were unable to contribute as well. You said your calendar was an attempt to reintroduce Iranian women, to reveal their hidden history, and establish links with feminists throughout the world who are largely uninformed about Iranian women's activities.

NA - When I was doing research on women for the first calendar, what struck me was the lack of inclusion of Iranian women in all the sources I looked through. I couldn't find one that mentioned a single Iranian woman. There were other women from non-Western countries, from Egypt, Algeria, Palestine, India... but none from Iran. You'd think we hadn't done a single thing. But in reality, we have many women who have contributed a great deal and who played integral roles during certain periods of our history. For example, Sedighe Dolatabadi was a very important woman and she did an extraordinary amount of social and political activism. She played just as an important role as all the celebrities who are mentioned everywhere, while Dolatabadi is not.

I started thinking about why this is so, and I concluded that some of the reason has to do with our different political histories. These other countries were all under colonial rule at some point, and with that rule, came the infiltration of the colonizer's language. So, the first hurdle- language- was overcome. Women who were active in social and political settings could speak the "official" language, they could establish relations, they could communicate their criticisms and discontent. Iran was never under direct colonial rule, and we never learned another language besides Farsi. Women were never armed with the language of criticism, so to speak. It is only very recently that Iranian women started going abroad. Historically, it was mostly men who enjoyed such opportunities.

That's why I included a short introduction in English this year, in the hopes that Iranian women will be considered in future anthologies.

Of course, I think that push for awareness needs to come from Iranians who live abroad- to introduce Iranian women who have pushed for progress, challenged authority, and made contributions in various aspects of society.

MS - Do you think it's important for Iranian women to establish links with other women throughout the world?

NA - Sure, after all, these systems are global. Male-dominated systems are not unique to Iran, we see them everywhere throughout the world. Women share some commonalities, and while we have differences as well, we share many of the same problems. And I think it's important to learn from other experiences of resistance. However, I don't see the necessity of learning from women in the West, because we have always looked vertically and not horizontally. I'm speaking more to the establishment of stable and lasting relations with our female neighbors. Maybe they can help us more effectively, because our situations are a bit more similar. But we have always placed more value on the West, and while I'm not condemning a look to the West, I'm also pointing to what's nearby. Look at Egypt, for example, they have a very strong history of women's resistance. Why not learn from their experiences?

However, the West has historically been able to exert their values and their sense of superiority, and we have accepted them.

MS - In the west, there's a big, intense debate going on between feminists of color and white feminists-

NA - Well I understand that those discussions are relevant there... In Iran, every time Western culture entered, it meant freedom for women. If you look at appearances,- what you can wear for example- for millions of young girls, the West holds a great attraction. Precisely with all the anti-American rhetoric that has been espoused by the regime over the past twenty years, any wariness that once existed has lost all meaning.

It's true that during Shah's reign, especially towards the end, it was different. There was a strong reaction against the forceful imposition of so-called Western values. There was a sense of being humiliated, though today this no longer exists. But even during his rule, there was a certain appeal to watching Farah (the queen) stand by his side, in public, uncovered. It smelt like freedom, even though it wasn't - the Shah was hardly enlightened, and he was very much a patriarch who had little respect for women. In a sense, these Western behaviors did represent some kind of freedom, some kind of challenge to the traditions that were weighing heavily on women. In our neighboring countries, the culture and customs looked too familiar, they were not different enough. But Western culture was just different enough to sweep in like a breath of fresh air that could shatter what was seemingly impenetrable. It was very appealing to Iranian women. Something different, finally. It offered itself as an alternative.

Especially in our culture, where some norms are so rigidly defined: The model for women is the following, for men it's this, and for the child it's this - They're uncompromising moulds, and since the revolution, not only have they remained unshakeable, they have become sacrosanct. What was custom before has become the law, and if you dare question it, you are potentially committing blasphemy.

MS - How do you feel about this attraction to the seemingly liberating effects of the West?

NA - To a certain extent, it's inevitable. I believe it has its positive and negative aspects. I believe it's a trend and a process that needs to run its course. We can't stand in its way. We need to experiment with the attraction to come to the conclusion that this alternative is not the answer. We, too, need to have the opportunity- the permission to make mistakes, and gain experience. It's futile to say, don't do it, you're making a mistake, you'll hit a dead end. We can't be the guardians, the keepers of the gate, to this awareness. And furthermore, I don't even know if we can.

I don't believe in being reactive to any phenomenon. I don't believe in having a knee-jerk negative reaction to things that are American or Western, even in light of Iran's history of being under their domination. I don't want to be standing there aggressively, with my fists up. We're equals, and we should face one another as such.

MS - I think it's difficult to maintain a sense of identity when none of the conflicting messages you receive really speak to your condition. I think many young people are frustrated because of this. Being young is always difficult, but it's even more challenging here. But what I think is interesting about your perspective is that it, too, is a product of post-revolutionary Iran. You came to adulthood in post-revolutionary Iran, in which there was no strong Western presence. For you, the West is neither seductive nor threatening.

NA - It's true, many of the older activists are still suspicious and cautious where it concerns the West. They remember the Shah's reign, and his obsequious bowing at the feet of the West. Many people hated the Shah for being such a doormat. It was insulting and degrading.

But let me add another dimension to Iran-West relations, all the recent foreign press we've been getting: Christiane Amanpour recently came to Iran to do a story, and her report was just aired on CNN, and many Iranians watched via satellite. Apparently Amanpour had presented Iran's young generation as all being in love and enthralled with America. A friend of mine told me of her grossly over-simplified representation. She was very upset and said that she wanted to write an article in response to the report. So what?, I told her. Why such a strong reaction to a story that has nothing to do with us and our realities? Anyway, Amanpour did her story from that angle. (laughing) I mean if you watch Iranian TV, you'd think that all Americans want to be Muslim, and over there, they show that all Iranians want to be American. It is ridiculous, but I don't see why we who are in the middle should get so upset. You know, leave us out of it. We have more important things to do here than worry about such matters.

And what's interesting is that several months ago, a representative of Christiane Amanpour's had contacted me to inform me that Amanpour was planning to come to Iran to do a story, and that she was interested in interviewing me, along with a couple other Iranian women. Her representative conducted a preliminary interview with me, and one of his questions was, if I was given residency in America right now, would I go? No, I said, why leave? I want to live in Iran. He was really shocked, and told me that everyone he spoke to said they wanted to go.

And I said I had no desire to go. It was so interesting to me that he in such a state of disbelief. I guess I didn't realize how Western-struck and desperate Americans thought we Iranians were. And this representative wouldn't let it drop. But isn't life difficult here?, he asked. Sure it is, I said. But because I'm working for change, and I'm - hopefully - helping people set foundations for a better future, I don't think much of the difficulties. I'm optimistic. If I believe in building a better nation, if I believe in democracy and development, well, then I have to stay to help make that possible, don't I? This is my country. I mean, what did you guys do over there? You stayed and built your country. Well, we want to stay and build our country as well. Well, Christiane Amanpour never came to interview me. And after I heard about her broadcast, it made perfect sense. Her story had a certain angle, she wanted to show the young generation in a certain light, and there was no place for people with views such as mine.

Of course, she's working for a big news agency like CNN, and they have their own perspective and vision they want to broadcast. Reporters are constrained to a certain degree, it's not like they're free to gain an understanding or familiarity with what's truly going on here. So Americans think that all Iranians are miserable and are looking to them for answers. What does it matter?

MS - Those simplifications and generalizations are similar to the foreign press reaction to the latest 6th Majlis elections.

NA - Exactly. You'd think there was a revolution going on here. And let me add that these stories are targeted towards Americans, to prepare them for the re-establishment of ties with Iran. These stories lay the groundwork. The American government is pursuing its own interests, and is going to have to justify future relations with a regime they have been bad-mouthing for years. These stories allow for them to say, see, look at all the radical changes occurring in Iran, look at their youth- they're making it more palatable to Americans.

Conducted and translated by MS

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