Interview with Mahdokht Sanati

Mahin (Mahdokht) Sanati is a long-time feminist activist, the founder of Anjaman Baraye Hemayat az Hoquqe Kudak (National Association in Support of Children's Rights), and editor of a collection of writings by Sedighe Doulatabadi, who is considered the pioneer of the women's movement in Iran, and who was active from 1907 until her death in 1961. "Sedighe Doulatabadi: Nameha, neveshteha va yadha" (letters, writings, remembrances), ed. Mahin Sanati & Afsaneh Najmabadi, Barnard College, 1998.

Ms. Sanati - The book was edited with the help of Afsaneh Najmabadi. It was a coooperation between many women; it isn't owned by anyone. Unfortunately, the book doesn't have a good market in the US. And since it's been banned, there are only very few copies available in Iran. Even when Zahra Shojai, President Khatami's deputy, wanted a copy, she couldn't get permission to obtain one.

And this is a very good example for the beginning of our discussion: if there are no books about women, how can we learn about ourselves. From the very beginning, in school, in games, in high school, women gradually lose self-confidence instead of gaining in it. This book is an example - after putting so much energy and capital into it, and then not being able to sell it, and nobody even reacting to it, you lose your self-confidence. And then we wonder why women are unable to do things.

MS - They speak of a 'hidden history'. Women tend to feel victimized because even if there are constant examples of resistance, they're all unknown.

Ms. Sanati - And that's why what you're doing is important. You're opening that hidden history. The more people you talk to, the better.

Actually, the book was a side project. I do work for children. I founded the National Association in Support of Children's Rights. The organization is seven years old now, though it was registered only four months ago.

Before that, I worked for women for a very long time, going to villages, talking to women and participating in literacy campaigns, especially in the region of Kerman - my father comes from that area, so people there know my family. Unfortunately, the program was cut short during the revolution.

After the revolution, I felt that I shouldn't go back to the villages any more. Although I'd always told women they should stand up for their rights, after leaving country for seven years, I started to think differently about the project I'd been involved in. I'd been telling women things like, 'why do let yourselves be treated like animals, why do let yourself be beaten by your hamsar (farsi for spouse, literally meaning equal-headed). Then, if women would eventually start saying these things in front of their husbands, they were asked, 'who told you that?', and they would answer, 'so and so'. And so their husbands would say, 'if I catch that woman I'll cut her hair off, just to show you you're not my hamsar, that I have the right to beat you, that you are to listen to every word I say'.

Actually, I shouldn't have told them all those things. At the time, people weren't ready for it. You know, one of my deepest regrets is, I would go to a village, and would ask for Sedigheh, for example, and poor Sedighe would come running to me, and we would start talking about having a meeting, and this and that, and I'd never really care about Sedighe's husband, her father, her brother. We just gave Sedighe all the attention, and as soon as I left the village, people would ask her, 'why did that woman come and talk to you, and without my permission?'. Sedighe would never tell me these things. And when I'd go back to the same village, and they would tell me 'she's unable to see you', I would never understand why. But apparently she'd been beaten so badly that she couldn't come to see me anymore. As soon as they had the power to do so, the men would show they were the ones who could decide who comes to the village, and who couldn't. I really didn't get the picture, and didn't see that you have to make these social changes very, very slowly, and you have to prepare society for them before you can go in and actually start making them.

Anyway, when I left Iran after the revolution, I was told, 'please don't come back, your life is in danger here'. And when I did come back, after seven years, I wanted to contact those women, and they told me, 'We would love to see you, but please don't come back to our villages. We have our own lives now, and our families, and we don't want to go back to all those things which were unacceptable here. We prefer to keep a low profile.'

So after many hours of thinking, I decided that the best I could do was to go toward the children. That if people talked about the rights of children, fathers and mothers would agree, and would learn about these rights, and hopefully internalize them: if a woman learns not to beat her child, because she realizes that beating someone is wrong, then the whole atmosphere changes, and even affects the husband who wants to beat his wife.

TZ - Your approach is not to just address feminism directly, and say, this is what we want right now, but to accept that it's connected to so many things it almost doesn't matter where you start.

Ms. Sanati - Absolutely.

My ideal is that people get to know about their rights. And the younger you learn about them, the more serious you will be about it. So it may not work for this generation, but hopefully for the next one. If as a child you already know that you shouldn't be beaten, then you won't do it to others, either.

TZ - Have you noticed any changes in the younger generation with respect to men/women relations?

Ms. Sanati - In very, very small doses, yes. For example, in this group of twelve women that I've been working with for almost three years now, this woman was saying 'I can't be with my husband any longer'. And she was really very serious about it. She isn't going to back to her previous life, and she's been making some money. The main reason why many women go back is because they have no support - there aren't any women's shelters in iran, nor any children's shelters. But she is one example for the beginning of a 'blooming'.

Another problem is that, by law, if a woman leaves home without the husband's permission, this is a criminal offense, so he can go and file for divorce without having to pay her dowry. But in this case, she would be very happy to get a divorce, and she's saying that she doesn't care about her dowry, that her dignity is far more important.

Then there are cases in which men have come to our office and said that the wife had left the house, and left the children behind. I'm sure that if those women left their children, it must have broken their hearts, but they had no choice, they know that in a divorce, the children are the father's property. This is heartbreaking, and yet it makes me smile. It's the beginning of them realizing that unless they stand on their own two feet, noone's going to give them equal rights. I feel sorry for the children, because I know that the father's going to go to work, and the children will be abandoned at home, or be given to their aunt or someone, but this is a period we have to go through. It's a price we have to pay for women's rights.

MS - Then there's the issue of what they call double duty, of women who work and are still entirely responsible for the children.

Ms. Sanati - Yes, I think that now the economy is going downhill, and one really has to work for a decent standard of living, to have an apartment and food on the table, unfortunately, if a young couple decides to have children, it's still the woman's duty. There's hardly any men who are willing to cooperate. In this group of women I talked about, they talk to their husbands and say, 'I'm going to work, how much do you want for taking care of the children?', and the husband says, 'I don't want any money, and I'm not doing that sort of work. Take the children with you.' And so the wives say 'Why don't YOU take them to YOUR office?', and so on, there are all these long discussions. But the other day I asked this man for a favor, and he said 'I can't help you, I promised I'd look after the children'. I was delighted - it's a small group, but there are many small groups, and it takes time, it doesn't happen overnight.

TZ - Did anything become better with the revolution?

Ms. Sanati - Yes, definitely. One of the things that happened, and it's great that it did happen, is that many women from the lower middle classes started getting out of the house, and going to the namaaz-jom'e (Friday prayer). In those long queues, people started talking to each other. And women started becoming active. Things like these have made both women and men more conscious of what's going on. It wasn't overnight that people got to those polls and voted. It's through 20 years of experience, and through learning that if you don't participate, you'll lose.

I've realized that many among the younger generation are very smart and active, and don't count on their fathers, but think for themselves. Of course, lots of things in Iran are just fads. But I think this is something that is deeper down.

TZ - Would you say the elections will bring any changes in the near future?

Ms. Sanati - I don't know.

There has already been some talk in recent years about reforming the courts. The laws against women are extremely harsh: a 9-year old girl is treated like an adult. But just yesterday, they started discussing a special court for children, and actually decided that everyone in prison under 18 years of age should be released. That's fabulous. Even though, on the other hand, those kids have nowhere to go.

One problem is that women aren't supportive of each other. I was voting, and I said to someone who was in front of me, 'how many women do you have in your list of candidates, in mine I have ten!', and she said 'ten women, you must be crazy'. And she said women were no good, and that those women who'd been elected to parliament hadn't done anything. I told her we hadn't given them a chance, that they hadn't had the time, that if we supported them, over several periods in parliament they'd gain experience. She said 'I've never heard anyone talk like that, and I only have one woman in my list and that's Jamileh Kadivar, and only because she's the wife of so and so'.

TZ - There were only fourteen woman MPs out of over two hundred.

Ms. Sanati - Yes, and the problem is that, as we saw at that question-and-answer session with the MPs, in the beginning these people were a group. But due to their various political activities, the group disintegrated, and they all became involved with different factions, and they were neutralized.