Discussion with artists Bahar Behbahani, Farahnaz Ghofrani and Naazi Neivandi

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We were glad to have found three woman artists who agreed to participate in the discussion round- to be guinea pigs in what was essentially an experiment- who all differed in age, economic background, and artistic orientation. Any shortcomings in structure or content of the discussion are due to the fact that the roundtable was a first experience that we intend to build on.

MS - Could each of you introduce yourselves -

FG - My name is Farahnaz Ghofrani, I live in Karaj [a large suburb northwest of Tehran], and I'm 34 years old. I'm a housewife and I have two children, one is six years old and the other is four, who keep me busy with various responsibilities. But since I've always loved painting, I painted here and there, whenever I could. I took many classes, with various teachers.
 

I've also had various jobs teaching art: I taught many painting classes for children, I worked in the Department of Visual Arts and Guidance of Karaj, and held various children's art exhibitions.

Living far from Tehran, taking art classes is more difficult. If you want to learn art, you have to go to Tehran. Classes are limited in Karaj. And even though Karaj is pretty far, a lot of our kids make the commute to Tehran. I regularly come to Tehran to take classes.

I've participated in several group exhibitions, in Iraq, and in cities across Iran where we invited young people- we had very good reactions from them. They would come and eagerly have discussions with us about art in general.

My teacher, Mr. Alkhaas, also took some of his students' works to Australia, where they were received very positively. Two of my pieces were sold there. Abroad, like in Australia and Spain, people seem to be very interested in Iranian art, especially those of young Iranians. In contrast, I recently had a gallery showing in Tehran with another woman painter, and we sold very few paintings. People aren't very familiar with paintings here. Their exposure has been minimal. Our "wall culture" in Iran is a bit weak here. People prefer putting tapestry on their walls over buying a painting from an artist.

I've spoken to many housewives, who spend most of their time at home. Unfortunately, some Iranian women have this tendency to just drown themselves in their housework and in the raising of their children. They engage in very few other activities, such as reading books, for example. But some of them make these tapestries to hang on their walls. I would suggest hanging a painting on their walls instead, and encourage them to paint. A painting can talk to you, you can look at the art that you've created. Why not do that, instead of spending hours sewing the same thing over and over in minute detail, with your eyes weakening over time.

Anyway, because I had always loved painting, I kept myself involved despite going through some pretty difficult times. I was accepted at a university, but couldn't go, for financial reasons, the university was private and I couldn't afford the tuition.

My husband is very supportive and encouraging. He encourages me to continue my education, even if most of my teachers discourage me from studying painting in college. But I do think it's good for everyone to get a college education.

MS - Why do they discourage you? Is there a fear that college will hamper one's creativity?

FG - Kind of. If you've already created, or have some sense of your own style, when you study art in college, you have to give that up to an extent. On the other hand, I do believe that one should work with different professors until one finds one's own style.

You see, there is a great deal of imitation in Iran. Presently, there are many young people who are doing abstract art, but I think that there should be elements of Iranian culture in artwork. Even in abstract art. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to blindly imitate Western art in Iran, even if there are currently many different opinions and styles regarding painting in Iran, so it would be wrong to simplify all works under one category. The reason why our paintings are received so positively abroad is precisely because they maintain their own identities.

MS - Let's move on.

BB - My name is Bahar Behbahani. I'm 26. I earned my high school diploma in graphic design. I attended Al-Zahra University, a public, all-women's university, where I majored in painting. But it was only in college that painting became the main focus in my life. Al-Zahra itself had a very closed environment, so I had to visit other universities and expose myself to other professors in an effort to find my own character in my work.

Afterwards, I entered into an azad [private] university for my master's degree. I tried to strengthen my knowledge of art theory. Because this viewpoint that is espoused by painters- that they speak through their art, and it is enough to just "do art"- is no longer correct. A painter should be able to analyze her work.

An issue which I've studied for a period of several years, and on which I did my master's thesis, is the impact of modernity during the Qajar period. To understand modernity, it is first important to see where it originated from in Iran. And not merely the relationship between modernity and painting, but Iranian modernism in general. In my thesis, I tried to open the issue of critical thinking [andishe-ye naghd], one of the dominant features of the modern era, which, in Iran, began during the Qajar period.

My work is abstract, but not purely abstract; it has figurative elements as well. It's been almost seven years that I've been seriously working on this form of abstract painting; the main issue for me is the relationship of human beings with their environments, the effects of this interaction.

I just opened my second individual gallery showing at the Barg Gallery in Tehran. I've also had many group exhibitions, and my work is currently being shown in a group exhibition at the Art Expo in New York.

NN - I'm Naazi Neivandi and I'm 43 years old. I had two stints at college. The first time around, I was attending Al-Zahra and majored in interior architecture until the colleges were closed down after the revolution. Then the cultural revolution hit, and my field was considered counterrevolutionary, but I somehow managed to finish my degree. Then I went to an azad university and studied graphic arts. These were my fields of study, neither of which I ever used in my life. Because I was also an athlete, I've been a teacher of physical education for twenty years in different colleges. I also taught at various athletic clubs and organized sports teams. Since quitting teaching athletics two years ago, I've been doing photography full-time.

I first started taking pictures after the revolution. I portray social issues by constructing fantastical scenarios that reflect various social problems.

I also did a project where I photographed 100 women's professions in Tehran- from the lowest of the low, to the most highly regarded. I've also been working as a photographer for UNICEF for the past four years. I travel across Iran and take photographs for their books, catalogues, brochures, whatever- on women's rights and children's rights- though most of my work is on women's issues.

MS - Why did each of you agree to participate in this roundtable discussion?

NN - Maybe it was because you said that you wanted to introduce Iranian women to the other side. And since I, too, show women, I think it's important that women themselves see what the others are doing, what capabilities they have. Many women who came to my exhibition of women's professions were surprised by some of the professions that women had. They didn't realize some of the jobs that women performed, some of the things they could do. But I believe that a woman can do whatever she wants to. It's possible, and I think women need to be aware of this, and see it in action.

MS - What were some of the professions that you photographed?

NN - There were some from the technical industry sector. Some were in the sciences, which is considered the most prestigious of professions in Iran. For example in the profession of piloting, in which no one thinks there are any women, one of the people who trains pilots is this small old lady. She would come everyday and do her job quietly. Most people didn't even know what she did. But this little woman, who year after year, teaches all these men the sciences and skills of piloting, doesn't have the permit to fly herself. The only thing she can fly is a glider.

Then, there were the female truck drivers. Who knew that we had women truck drivers? If a woman wants to drive a truck, then she can. It's possible, but she has to be willing to stand her ground.

MS - And at the lower end of the professional spectrum?

NN - (laughs) Thievery, mord-e shoor [corpse-washer]. Of course, the lowest job in our culture is prostitution.

TZ - Which I hear in Tehran is quite rampant, even for kids as young as 13 or 14.

FG - It's even being addressed in movies, like in Shokaran.

NN - It's a profession in which there is money to be made, and quite a lot of it.

I think it's important to make young people aware of our social realities, but obviously, I wasn't allowed to show these pictures, there's such a strong denial of certain issues.

MS - How did you photograph them?

NN - There are certain spots along the highway where the kids stand, and cars come by to pick them up. I took pictures of them standing there. It's a short-lived career. Usually, it only lasts for two or three years, but that person has to live with it for the rest of his or her life.

BB - Why did I decide to participate in this roundtable discussion- well, it was incidental. Your phone call came at a time when I was finishing my preparations for my gallery showing. I thought it would be a new experience and a new encounter. You called, and I agreed to come.

FG - When I was single, it was much easier to pursue my work. I could just get up and go whenever I pleased. But after my marriage and the birth of my two kids, things became more difficult. My friends can't believe how I have the energy to get up at 2 am to paint. But it's important to me, and I believe that every woman can pursue for herself what she loves.

Many women who were previously active before marriage just lose it all afterwards. Housework is one of those things that if you're not careful, if you let yourself go, before you know it, you're completely stuck and can't get out.

Some people may look down on me because I leave my two kids with my sister or mother while I go pursue my work. But the energy that I get from painting comes home with me, and is shared with my children. I'm a better mother as well. I don't suffer from depression like many women do, and my home isn't stifling or sad. And even though I am not where I want to be with my work, I know that I'm getting there. I'd like other women to be aware that it's possible.

And I also think that people abroad have the wrong impression. When our artwork was taken abroad, I was struck by how many people were surprised that we were so active.

NN - If you want to know about women, one of the best places to get information are the buses. From the time you get on the bus until you get off, you can hear women's complete life stories. They talk about everything to each other- their problems, their issues, their families.

So many women work behind the scenes. Even the ones who stay at home have an effect on society. The husbands who go out everyday into society are influenced by their wives; men want their wives opinions, even when they don't ask for it directly, and the women don't give it to them directly either. They often run their husbands' lives without letting them think that they are.

There are examples of women's strength and determination everywhere. Like those medical students from Qom: day after day, night after night, they sat and slept in the streets to protest their mistreatment. They didn't budge, and they eventually got their issues resolved.

However, I also think, unfortunately, that women give in to their husbands too much. From the most educated to the less so. Even though they run so many things from behind the scenes, they are unwilling to come out and say so, and take credit for their efforts. Maybe it's a fear of disrupting their homes. I don't know.

I never got married myself, but I see it so often in marriages.

MS - Is that why you didn't get married?

NN - To tell you the truth, I didn't want to lose my freedom. And I would have found being married offensive to my proper sense of character.

FG - Why do you say that? Not if you know yourself. The problem is that many women lose themselves once they get married. Women must maintain their sense of self.

NN - But it doesn't work out that way. I think that in general, women give in. They do most of the compromising. And having kids is such a big responsibility, and it's very time-consuming. I like to travel and explore, and with my work and the photojournalism, there's just no room.

You see, when I was younger, all my time was devoted to athletics. Then the revolution happened [Š]

MS - What sports did you do?

NN - I was on the national basketball team before the revolution, and I was also heavily into judo. Later, I swam and taught swimming, basketball, and judo for over 20 years. When the revolution happened, everything was disrupted, and all sports activities were pushed aside. Eventually I started teaching, and I trained many good athletes, independent-minded and strong women. Many went on to become respected and well-known coaches. A couple of them broke records in Iran. When I taught swimming to kids, I always had the boys and girls swim together, so they would not feel any difference between each other. They swam and trained side-by-side, and they competed with each other. That's the way we were trained in the old days. It forced us to try harder and become better athletes when we had to compete with men's athletic abilities.

MS - How do you feel about addressing women as a separate issue, like we do in Bad Jens?

BB - I don't think much of separating men and women's issues, especially in the realm of art. Art deals with creativity, and that is more than a merely material issue. I would like to deal with my perspective of the world as a human being- I don't accept the premise that there should be a woman's art, or that women's art should somehow reflect their femininity. Maybe one can find some very small elements that point to an artist's femaleness, but I don't think it should be the main focus- it shouldn't be the positive point in her work. It's only one of many elements that make up the entire work.

MS - Sure, but as women, we have experiences that are not merely human. We have experiences that are exclusive to our sex, which begin from the very start of our lives.

BB - But I don't want to create an art that is limited to one half of the population. Or to create something that is more appealing to women than to men. I see human beings as my audience. Now, if women connect more to my art, then that's what happened. But it is not my main concern.

MS - You don't think your female experiences inform your work?

BB - It's possible that it creeps in unintentionally, but I don't point to it, and develop it.

NN - It's true that women and men are human beings first, but they are separate as well. By virtue of our sex, there are many environments where men do not allow us to be present. Like it or not, we are separate and there are real differences. It's like our Iranianness. In our work, without stating it explicitly, it is obvious that we are Iranian. It shows.

TZ - Maybe the good or bad of separating men's from women's issues is not really the point here ­ given that they're separated so much in Iranian society in the first place, perhaps they need to be considered together more. But it's important to see that in Iran, like in the West, the perspectives of women in history have yet to be exposed. They're different from those of men.

BB - In Iran, the Constitutional Revolution is known as the cornerstone of the modern era. For the first time, democracy and constitutionalism were discussed and brought to the forefront of the national agenda. Women played a very big role here. The protests, demonstrations, and discussions were very often initiated by women, and they were the ones who pushed the men forward.

These discussions of women's absence and inequality have always existed- not just now, and not just here. And in my life, I'm still trying to understand why this problem has always existed. But this is not an issue that is limited to Iran only. Maybe in appearance, because we wear the hejab, people think that we have no freedoms and we are helpless and docile. But the hejab is a surface issue, and that kind of perspective is very limited. When we have issues of such importance as freedom of expression and the undermining of women's strengths, I think the hejab is the least of our issues. Its place is at the bottom of the list. Women in Iran are not weak, and they are, in fact, very active.

NN - The first time I met the representative from UNESCO, he wanted pictures of Iranian women next to their cow dung. He had just arrived from abroad, and he wanted these very specific images.

But there is such diversity- not just between various women, but within an individual woman: when she goes to the office, she looks one way, and when she goes out for dinner, another way, and at home, an entirely other way. But very often, I get requests for photographs of women wearing chadors. It's gotten to the point where I refuse to exhibit pictures of such women anymore.

MS - Ms. Behbahani, you spoke of spending some years trying to find the proper "character" to your work. What difficulties did this imply?

BB - In the field of painting, I think that women have progressed a great deal. There are many galleries that exhibit women's artwork. They're generally received very positively. Personally, I didn't experience any difficulties.

I agree with Ms. Ghofrani that it isn't necessary to study painting in college, and that it may even hinder your creativity. Pedagogy is in a bad state in Iran. However, in a society where so much emphasis is placed on degrees, it's important to be backed up by one when you speak in your field.

Academically speaking, during the 20th century, many things changed in terms of art. Iranian art has always been intimately connected to literature. Our miniature paintings depict our literature. The cultural history of illustrative art has been linked to literature. It's the same in other art forms as well, like in music. There would have been no Shajarian if there had been no Hafez. This has very far-reaching roots here.

But since the 20th century, artists have said that they no longer want to carry literature on their backs. Visual artists said they wanted to be considered separately, with their own language. And with that break came abstract and modern art.

FG - There are elements of abstract forms in my work, but they are combined with realism. I identify myself as woman painter, and my paintings very often portray women and children.

I believe that our visual culture is very weak here, it hasn't developed to a point where we can comprehend and appreciate abstract art. It isn't recognized as art by the average person. While I think that this knowledge and understanding of art has to be developed, I also believe that we need to go at the people's pace. That is why I combine the two forms. Figurative art can speak more to people in Iran.

As I said before, there's a problem of a lot of exhibitions being mere imitations of the West. Especially among artists who earn master's degrees in art. Once they've earned their degrees, they think all their energies must be devoted to abstract art. But it doesn't speak to people, and I believe that art should be far-reaching, and ultimately, global.

MS - Maybe what is refreshing about abstract art, particularly in Iran, where I sense there is much discomfort with ambiguity, is that it is not immediately apparent- its imagery is not as explicit.

FG - I'm not suggesting that abstract art cannot elicit a response, neither am I questioning its legitimacy or worth. My point is that painting is one of the art forms that hasn't gone through the necessary stages of development in Iran. Then suddenly, abstract art comes in from the West, and instead of finding its place within our culture and history, it's blindly imitated.

BB - I agree with you, but I don't think that this is the place for this kind of discussion. Debating the merits of abstract art is a complex issue that involves a long and involved discussion.

MS - In fact, I think this discussion does have a place here. Art, or any other discipline for that matter, doesn't exist in a vacuum, it interacts with societal issues as a whole. These "specialized" discussions reflect existing social conditions. And I think that this specific discussion speaks to this point.

BB - Here's the problem: In contrast to Western countries, Iran doesn't have adequate cultural intermediaries. I'm speaking of Iranian radio, TV, newspapers, magazines, and education. For example: Graphic art serves as a very important intermediary between artists and people. In other countries throughout the world, artists do their own work, they don't have the responsibility to sit among the people and raise their level of understanding. Relationships are established through good graphic art, good advertising, and a good educational system that begins in grade school. Because we don't have this in Iran, there is a distance between artists and people.

I'm happy to say that last month, for the first time since the revolution, we established the Painters' Union. We just received our permit, and we're hoping to address some of these problems through committees on education and research, and through exhibitions.

NN - I've worked in a university setting for 20 years, and I think that one of the reasons why young people lose touch with their own culture is because of our professors. They stifle students' intelligence.

As for the artists' guild that has just been established, others have existed for years, and they can be very exclusionary. They can't address all the existing obstacles. I can't get access to certain places as a female, independent photographer, but the well-to-do guy with the right connections can get in. He can talk to the police officer or the doorman, so to speak- maybe slip him a little bit of money- and gain access. He's able to sell that picture and make a reputation for himself. I can't get a guild card because I'm a free-lance photographer, and I'm not affiliated with any specific agency. And these problems are not just exclusive to photojournalism and photography.

In the visual arts, you have to be financially independent to have a chance at getting yourself known. Photography is a very expensive profession, and painters make practically no money. Those who are able to do it full-time have the means from some other source.

I do photojournalism to earn money. My other photography actually drains me financially. And it's especially difficult for me because I photograph social issues concerning women.

BB - Well I also work alongside my painting. I have my own graphic design firm, and that is how I support myself.

The problem is that artists are not supported in our society. Abroad, there are corporate sponsorships, and government and private grants that support artists, which helps explain why things are more developed there.

TZ - There's this cliché that artists here are more mature because they have censorship and all these other hardships to contend with. There's this feeling that Western artists are spoilt brats.

BB - I actually agree with that. Some very good art came about under hardship. When you look at Iranian art abroad, you see that they're not doing anything interesting. Maybe things are more stimulating here because we can't say things directly. We have to look for other ways to communicate, and in our pursuit, new and creative things develop. I believe that it adds to one's creativity.

TZ - I'm working with some artists who will be coming over from Geneva for the Swiss Cultural Exchange Week in Iran. They work in multi-media, and I'm a bit concerned that Iranian artists will not be able to relate to them, and vice versa.

FG - I think Iranian artists will find it very interesting.

It's great for Iranian artists to be exposed to what is going on abroad, as long as they don't look at the works superficially. I remember a few years back, some artist in the US had taken a full trash can, and knocked it over, and exhibited the result. Well, this Iranian artist who had seen that exhibit came back here and did the exact same thing. I thought it was so ridiculous. He didn't understand that the artist in America who turns over a trashcan, or has a sink in his exhibition, is speaking to conditions that exist in America. The guy had missed the whole point.

On the whole, artists here have a double identity. Ms. Behbahani and I, for example, do our paintings, and our abstract illustrations, but then we also go to the villages and see our women in chadors, living very different lifestyles and dealing with very different realities. And in our work, we try to come to terms with both of these components in our lives.

transl.: MS

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