Interview with Maryam Salour
Conducted and translated by MS

Maryam Salour is a sculptress, ceramist, and teacher. She has had numerous group and individual exhibitions at the Golestan Art Gallery and the Modern Art Museum of Tehran in Iran, as well as others in Europe. She is currently preparing for an exhibition of her works at Illinois State University in Normal, Illinois.

Salour - I was 18 years old when I went to France to study computer science, and stayed for 14 years. I had friends who were painters and for a short period of time, I painted after completing college. We would draw and sell our paintings in the streets.

It was very strange for me. I was from an upper-bourgeois Iranian family and such activities were very taboo in our culture. I was very concerned that my relatives who lived in Paris would see me selling paintings on the streets. I had it planned with my friends that if my family ever saw me, I would tell them that I came to visit my artist friends.

The whole experience was pretty significant because a lot of taboos were broken for me. I learned to trust myself more. I removed myself from my social class, and all its inhibitions and expectations, and spent some time being unemployed in Paris. I came to Iran for 3 months, but felt that there was nothing for me in Iran at that time.

I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and after returning to Paris, I found the Sovigny Ceramic School. The name of the street, Astrolabe, caught my eye, that's the only reason I went down the street.

When I went in the studio, it was completely empty. Everyone had gone out for coffee, and I was surrounded by pieces of pottery and ceramics. They really caught me. There were all these jugs and pitchers that reminded me of Iran. The ceramics of Hamedan which were so common and part of my daily life... something old from my childhood was touched. It was completely silent, and I just stood there alone with all the pieces that were arranged on various racks and shelves-it was like magic.

MS - I think many people feel that with the right kind of encouragement, they could have been successful, even great, in a field they loved, but that was not accepted by their surroundings.

Salour - Absolutely, and now that I'm a teacher, I'm very sensitive to this. I always did well in the classes in which I liked my teachers. And I did poorly in the classes in which I didn't like my teachers. I believe that we all have a certain amount of potential and talent, and it's just a matter of getting the right kind of teaching and encouragement. It's important how much a teacher gives a student attention and how much that student is encouraged. I have taken the least talented students and made them into really good sculptors. It's a combination of spending extra time and providing care and encouragement.

MS - Did you see the film, "Homework", by Kiorastami? When he asks the school children if they know the words, encouragement and punishment, many of the children did not know what encouragement meant, but they all knew what punishment meant. It was very telling.

Salour - This movie was very big, and it had a big impact on Iranian society here. The educational institutions took notice. Kiorastami was zooming in on something that exists in society, and that's what a great artist does. He observes and exposes realities that others are not able or willing to see.

Many people criticized the movie, and said that he was abusing these children in the film. I didn't see it that way at all. There is a system of abuse that exists in our educational system, and it's been going on for years; he merely brought it to the surface and showed it for all to see.

In Iranian culture, we think that we are sentenced and doomed from the start. We assume from the start that we're in the wrong, unless by happenstance, we manage to do something right.

MS - I think that this valorization of authority and hierarchy based on age is a real problem in Iran. I met a female writer who writes about women's issues, and she was speaking of her tribal background. She was talking about her tribe, and her father and her grandfather, and it really struck me how romantic and unquestioning she was. Here's a woman who's committed to the expansion of women's rights, and who questions male authority in the larger society, but is unable to critically examine the tribal family system-a markedly male-dominated and hierarchical system-because that touches upon her own personal life. And I think if you can't question your own family and the authority figures that thrive there, then how do you expect to transform society?

Salour - One thing to remember, women have a great deal of power in the home. We, women have to know ourselves, and recognize what's good for us, our children, and our husbands. Our characters and our integrity would be much more in tact if we did that.

Women who suffered from the poor treatment of their mother-in-laws do the exact same thing to their daughter-in-laws. That woman doesn't analyze the situation to prevent herself from repeating the same mistake. Women who suffered a lifetime from the inabilities and incapabilities of their husbands, raise their sons in the exact same way. Their sons don't do any work in the home-they don't clean or help with the housework. He's the agha, while his sisters do all the work.

You see it everywhere in Iran. When you go the villages, you see how much one woman does. She milks the cow, she does the farming, she tends to the animals if they get sick, she gives birth, she raises the kids, she cooks, she cleans. Yes, she gets help, but from other women. She ages quicker, is beaten by life sooner, and to top it off, her husband gets other wives.

And in this prison that she's suffering in, she puts her daughters in cahoots with her, and her husband and sons in cahoots with each other. I reserve my greatest criticism for the women.

I never had a great relationship with children before I had my own. I liked them well enough, but I didn't know them. After I became a mother, my relationship and my perspective completely changed. I love all children, and I see them all as my own.

It was in my nature, and I believe that it is in all women's natures; I don't think that we need to repeat the same mistakes.

There is so much male domination in society. When I'm out in public, I always let the men go by first or go through a door first. I'll step aside to let him go even though it's in total opposition to how I was raised. But I do it, because if I don't, I know that he'll get in my space, and he'll make a point of making me uncomfortable, either by actually physically touching me, or by somehow getting in my way. When I go to an office, I make a point of saying hello first and respecting this man, because I know if I don't, he will potentially make things more difficult for me.

This lack of respect to women is a very important issue and it precedes the revolution. However, before the revolution, I knew that if someone said something obnoxious to me on the streets, somebody else would object and defend me. Even more important, I knew that I could use my own voice and defend myself. But nobody says anything anymore- they don't have the nerve to, and I don't either because I'm not wearing a black chador.

MS - It's interesting to watch pre-revolutionary movies. There is so much misogyny, it's startling.

Salour - The objectification of women was much more prevalent back then. It still exists-this whole veiling thing is a continuation of the perspective that women are objects. But it was dirtier and more vulgar back then, and to make things worse, we were told we were free. But in reality, save for our voting rights, which were constantly held up as proof of the regime's respect, there wasn't a whole lot going on.

When you look around today, women are so much brighter and so much more knowledgeable. Women's accomplishments and activities were much less common before the revolution.

I see a good future for women in Iran because of the revolution. If the only problem is wearing a headscarf, fine. I'll wear it, and then I'm going to go out and do what I want, and demonstrate and support who I want. Women are finding and making a place for themselves.

The difference is between making change because you want to, versus change being ordered from above. Women have to know what changes they want for themselves, and how to live their lives. It should not come as an order, a prescription from some higher authority. I was at an art gallery once and I was speaking to these Reza Shah supporters, and they said to me, very insultingly, "The fact that you are standing here, carrying discussions, are a college graduate, is because of Reza Shah. He built those universities." I agreed with them, and pointed to my hejab, and replied that the fact that I was standing with this cover on, is also because of Reza Shah. If he hadn't forced the unveiling of women, and hadn't stripped them naked so to speak, then decades later, this different kind of imposition wouldn't have been forced on me. I blame Reza Shah and that system.

MS - When I first arrived here, I was really surprised by this romanticization of the past-something that apparently has been growing stronger over the past few years. It amazed me how some people conveniently forget or selectively remember the past.

Salour - But there are many young women who have figured out where the problem lies, where the roots are. There are many women-I'm including very religious women as well-who say that they don't want their daughters to have the same lives as they had.

I'll tell you, if the revolution hadn't occurred, there's no way I would have returned to Iran. Under the Pahlavi regime, there was so much contradiction-it was bourgeois, or at least pretended to be. Society had become very ugly, and everything was so distorted, I hated it all.

I loved Iran and I still do, it's my home. When I would visit Iran, I encountered a vulgar society that placed value on the worst elements from Western cultures. Nobody knew anything about the positive elements They only knew about the garbage; the lowest of the low had been imported from the West, but nothing of the good.

MS - How do you feel about addressing women's issues separately? Like a project such as BJ, which devotes itself entirely to women's issues.

Salour - I don't like this separation. I think that's part of the problem. Even in my own field. Nobody helped me. Working in group exhibitions was always difficult. Even though galleries were open to me, and opportunities were there, I advanced because of my strong will. I raised my voice, I made a big fuss every time, because I had to. If my work was not arranged properly, I raised hell until it was changed. I would have been completely ignored if I hadn't. If I had let them decide, I would have been placed behind every other male sculptor whose work was less worthy.

But I've gotten tired of fighting. This is why I no longer participate in group exhibitions. They don't choose people based on their work. I'm some woman who does this as a hobby. I heard this all the time.

When I was still with my husband, he used to help me mix the materials. He was very supportive-it's not like in Europe where you can just order what you need. You have to mix the stuff yourself. And I would hear people saying, Maryam doesn't do anything, it's her husband who does all the work. It was very difficult to hear. They were even trying to take away my creativity, my artistic abilities.

This lack of respect that women suffer from in society I see in my profession all the time. For example, when you look at the art juries in Iran, out of a jury of five, four are men, and only one is a woman. When in reality, there is not a shortage of talented women artists in Iran. There are far more women pottery makers than men, but the men win all the awards.

The jury is composed mainly of men, and there's still that attitude that men are the providers, so they should win the award money. The few women who do win, and are well-known, they are usually the wives of someone famous or of some hot shot professor. They're not standing alone. There's usually a famous brother, husband, or father behind them.

MS - I hear a lot about this clique mentality among writers and artists in Iran. Lots of them say that there is a dominant group, or a few competing groups in each field in which men dominate.

Salour - Yes, it does exist. And it's absolutely ridiculous. How can you talk about freedom when you don't respect it within your field, and you're forming these exclusionary groups? There are two groups, the leftist intellectuals and the religious intellectuals, that control the Museum of Modern Art. I used to show my works there, but I've had so many bad experiences that I've removed myself from the scene. I don't fit into either category. I'd rather display my work in my home and in my yard, and if there comes a day when I can't do it there, then I'll display them in the streets.

I refuse to limit myself by worrying about being published in art books and magazines, or being concerned with who the editor-in-chief is and if he or she likes my work. This is not why I'm doing art.

MS - Do you still show your work in galleries?

Salour - Yes, in private galleries. I've shown my work in Golestan Gallery, and I've spoken to Niavaran Gallery to show my new works.

When you work for yourself, you're free. We can think, we can articulate, we can create. A free person doesn't need a "leader." I remember when President Khatami resigned from The Ministry of Culture and Guidance. He wrote a letter that was published in the newspapers, and I saved it. He said it was because of the lack of freedom in our society. A society that is not free destroys creativity.

MS - Do you participate in art guilds?

Salour - I don't. I like freedom so much that I find these groups stifling. I respect them and wish them success, but I don't want to limit myself to a specific group.

MS - I remember during the roundtable discussion BJ held for the second edition, there was a marked difference between a younger painter who was active and very enthusiastic about a newly formed painters' guild, and an older photographer who was quite skeptical about these organizations.

Salour - The younger generation has the energy and ability to do things differently. After all, they are children of the revolution, and I believe that there is potential for such activities. On the other hand, the older generation has had a different experience. Some of these groups have operated as syndicates, and when they have managed to create relationships with the media and other intermediaries for example, it was only for members of that syndicate, and not for the art community at large.

I believe that Iranians don't know freedom and democracy. The problem is not with the state, it's with the individual. If I learn how to respect my child, her peers, and my students, and not impose on them, then I can create a healthy and vital society. But if I want to project my ideas and wishes on my child, or on my students, or for my own progress, I attach myself to my husband or father, or some organization or group, nothing will change.

MS - Do you see a difference between men and women in terms of reactions to your artwork?

Salour - It's mostly women who like my work. I made my name through my ceramic work. As much as ceramics is art and decorative, it's also functional. I think that pottery should be functional. Women use these pieces more, they see the function, and they generally buy such items.

While there are many men who like my sculptures, women are more drawn to them. I think it's because I'm a woman, and that sensitivity informs my work.

MS - Do you think that your work is feminine?

Salour - Some of my work is. And I think it's an advantage. A male sculptor cannot convey certain things that a woman can. However, I wouldn't say that about all my work.

MS - Do you subscribe to the point of view that Iranians don't recognize "good art," that the art culture in Iran is underdeveloped?

Salour - Yes, I think it is, but for a different reason. There has never been a big gap between fine arts and traditional art in Iran. A rug that a woman weaves, to me is not any lower in art form than a painting on a wall. Many of these rug weavers don't necessarily see their works as art, or themselves as artists. And very often, you'll see a painting that doesn't really have much in it. There's not much going on, but in that rug or in that piece of pottery, you see a great deal of detail, creativity, and originality.

Miniature paintings, which have a long history and a rich tradition, were never considered art on its own. They were drawn for the purpose of being put in books, not on walls. They were to illustrate and visualize the story for the reader. They were looked upon with great respect and were an important part of the book.

At some point, this changed and everything became mixed. We no longer look at art as a sublime force that finds its expression through artworks. These things are now looked at as decorative objects. Miniature painting and calligraphy, which I think are very honorable and esteemed professions, are used merely as decorations.

But at some point, this all got confused. Handicrafts became mixed up with art. My work used to get confused with handicrafts.

Yes, I work with my hands. But I create one unique piece that is not reproduced, and that captures that moment when I made it. A thousand copies are not mass-produced where one person creates the bowl, another paints on it, and another puts the enamel. I create the object, from start to finish, with my spirit and feelings that existed in that moment. I don't see a big difference between my sculptures and my pottery. They are different medias in which I work.

We are losing our traditional art because of this neglect. The paintings, ceramics, sculptures that an artist creates because it's her profession, is a separate issue. The food that nourishes her, the walk she takes in the streets, the life that she lives, the thoughts she has, the books she reads-all of these things are manifested in her work.

But that person who copies her professor's style or instructions, that's not the same. It's better to sit down and make the tablecloth that's one hundred percent her.

In Sustan-e Baluchestan for example, they have beautiful pottery that is made by the indigenous women with the most elementary materials. They don't have a pottery wheel, they turn it with their hands, and they use the dirt and mud from their yard for clay. They use black ink to paint on them. To me, that's pottery. And they eat their food and drink their water from it. This tradition, unfortunately, is being eliminated.

MS - And it's taught within the family, from mother to daughter?

Salour - Yes, in fact, pottery is one of those activities in which the whole family participates. The man cooks the clay and the women make it because they are the ones who cook and serve the food. This is their territory and they know best what sizes and shapes the pieces should be.

There's one handicraft institute in Tehran that is barely surviving, with a very small budget. People want their daughters to know how to paint or photograph, but if she knows how to sew, that's shameful. Those things are great too, anything that takes you away from the daily drudgery of life. But it's a shame that very few people are interested in maintaining our traditional forms of art.

For the Expo 2000 in Germany, I did some ceramics and calligraphy and Parvin Etemadi did other forms of Iranian art. It was an attempt on our part to keep this form of art alive, make it relevant, and give it the attention it deserves

MS - Why do you think there is a lack of interest and support for these old traditional art forms?

Salour - Because they're too traditional and Eastern, and the other forms are more Western. We're constantly looking to the West. We think that everything from the West is better.

Us Iranians have very little self-confidence. Look at our advertisements, for example. On ads for children's food, they have pictures of little foreign children. It's a tragedy.

And maybe they don't think it's a big deal or even notice, but subconsciously, it has an effect on all Iranian children. When that child sees a blue eyed, blond haired child on those billboards instead of a beautiful dark eyed, curly haired kid with olive skin, it has an effect. This is the fault of our intellectuals, professionals, and our graphic artists. I've heard graphic artists say to me that the people don't understand and notice the difference anyway. But I tell them that it's their job to make people understand. It's their responsibility.

Sometimes in my abstract pieces, when I realize that nobody understands it, I change it and make it a bit more literal. Maybe it's a mistake, but I want people to be able to relate. And sometimes, we have to go a little slower so people can catch up.

MS - Do you see this as a responsibility?

Salour - No, it's out of love for my art and the pleasure I take in establishing relations with people. But I don't see it as a responsibility.

There are other artists who think that the people are not important. They find a small minority who like their work, and frankly, I think that even those people don't understand it. That kind of art doesn't last. It has to move people or nobody will care in a few years.

MS - Do you think that it takes a specific type of person to understand art?

Salour - No, it only depends on how sensitive that person is. Once, I accidentally stumbled upon a group of blind children's drawings and I found their teacher who invited me to an exhibition they were having. I was absolutely amazed. There was a blind girl, who had drawn a self-portrait, very basic. This girl was 14 years old, and her drawing was at the level of an 8 year old, but what amazed me was how accurately she had drawn herself. The other kids had drawn themselves as well. It proved to me how much art is about feeling.

When I asked them how they distinguished colors, they said, from their fingertips. From the roughness and smoothness of the colors, and from their temperatures. Some colors were warm and some were cold. And they showed me. One girl who correctly described all the colors in her paint box, told me that her eyes were in her fingertips.

When you teach art, so much is about love and establishing relations. Girls stick it out in my classes longer than the boys do. And I try to emphasize the importance of sharing. Whatever you know, share with your classmates, I tell them. You can have secrets, but to a point.

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